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Clarification on rules


Noseian

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There's a bit of discrepancies between staff members regarding this rule:

 

"You must give 10 seconds of warning before arresting/killing someone unless they pull out a weapon/are shooting people/are wanted etc."

 

I've been told off other staff members that if a person has a gun out, you can kill them as they have pulled a weapon out, plus are a threat to citizens. However some other staff say that you have to warn even if they have a gun out. However it would be pretty stupid (to put it bluntly) to run up to the said person and say "Oh hi sir can you please put the gun down otherwise i'll have to arrest/kill you" as then you'll have to give them 10 seconds to buy ammo and then kill you. 

I just want some clarification into when you can KOS and not. As say for instance, there is a sniper walking past PD with a gun out. In my opinion I'd kill him as he has a gun out.  Please can senior staff reply into what is and isn't allowed. Thus, I can show staff to this post if they dispute what I am told. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Spizor said:

You don't need to warn them if they have a gun out, as it already states that in said rule. Having a heavy rifle out in public is indeed a threat so you can KOS him, though it all depends on the laws if weapons are illegal or not.

Alright thank you. I thought this was the case. However big n00b @Paul said i had to warn 

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14 minutes ago, Spizor said:

You don't need to warn them if they have a gun out, as it already states that in said rule. Having a heavy rifle out in public is indeed a threat so you can KOS him, though it all depends on the laws if weapons are illegal or not.

But the rule states you must give them a warning UNLESS they pull out a weapon. So if they have a weapon out before, the rule states you MUST warn them before KOSing. So maybe adjust the rule to state something like "If they have a weapon out, you may KOS" or something.

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Just now, Toast said:

But the rule states you must give them a warning UNLESS they pull out a weapon. So if they have a weapon out before, the rule states you MUST warn them before KOSing. So maybe adjust the rule to state something like "If they have a weapon out, you may KOS" or something.

That's what's weird. If they have a gun out, you're not going to ask them to drop if as they're just going to gat you in the face. Say for instance a FAMAS. One of the best guns in the game. It can kill you before you know it tbh. So even if you are asking them, you'll die most likely. 

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If they have a weapon out but aren't using it you have to warn them, and if you tell someone they are under arrest and they pull a weapon out you can kill them (this has been clarified by Jamie.) IMO the rules need the right balance between information and length, which can only be found by editing them until no further problems arise.

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4 minutes ago, Turtle said:

If they have a weapon out but aren't using it you have to warn them

But what counts as not using it? It's a very vague statement. If 3 gangsters are walking along after mugging someone, they are not using their guns however they have "used" their guns therefore i cannot kill them? Say for instance you know 3 gangsters are also walking along and mugging everyone in sight. They have waited the cooldown of mugging but you see them with guns. Now if you go over, they could then mug you and you have no option as it would be fail RP. It's very vague. 

 

It needs to be binary yes or no on guns not certain exceptions as it just causes problems like this. 

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2 minutes ago, Chriss said:

But what counts as not using it? It's a very vague statement. If 3 gangsters are walking along after mugging someone, they are not using their guns however they have "used" their guns therefore i cannot kill them? Say for instance you know 3 gangsters are also walking along and mugging everyone in sight. They have waited the cooldown of mugging but you see them with guns. Now if you go over, they could then mug you and you have no option as it would be fail RP. It's very vague. 

 

It needs to be binary yes or no on guns not certain exceptions as it just causes problems like this. 

That's exactly what I'm saying, the rules on this and others things are vague and should be updated to help players  and staff.

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It's like this, if someone pulls out a gun, you tell them to put it away, if they don't put it away, you arrest them. You don't immediately arrest them for having the gun out for like 1 second or without warning, you must always warn them before arresting. Though, if as you said, 3 gangsters walking around, I'd say you should warn them to not pull their guns out. If you see them pulling their gun out after warning, like some time after and in the same life, you arrest them, if they resist arrest/shoot at you, you KOS. I don't think time matters, what matters is the new life rule, are u in a new life or are u in the same life? That's what matters.

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9 minutes ago, hnood190 said:

It's like this, if someone pulls out a gun, you tell them to put it away, if they don't put it away, you arrest them.

But this completely contradicts the rule. This is my point exactly. You are saying that you must warn even though rules give a clear exception which is that if they have guns out you don’t have to. Which one should I listen to. You or the rules? 
 

 

9 minutes ago, hnood190 said:

you must always warn them before arresting.

Unless they have pulled their gun out which is my question. There’s no clear definition. Here’s you giving your view. Spizor giving his. Then turtle/Jamie giving theirs. All which are totally different. We need a clear rule which states, what is and isn’t allowed. The rule is too vague. It needs to be written down and not discussed or said.
 

If a senior staff member says “this is allowed” or along those lines they need to reference the rules or back it up by them. From my point of view, if a senior staff member does this, how can you tell the staff member dealing with a sit they said this. How can they believe you? You could record them saying it but that could be before a rule change etc. There needs to be a clear written down post or explanation which details what is and isn’t allowed for rules of engagement for CPs. As @Turtle said, it is not clear, it is a total grey area. 
 

I guess this post can be moved into suggestions as it has sort of formed into a suggestion or the rule to be rewritten as it’s very vague and staff need a clear basis to go off.

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4 minutes ago, Chriss said:

Which one should I listen to. You or the rules? 

I have had the same confusion about this as you have. I've asked Jamie about it and he confirmed it to me.

I believe the rule's pretty clear to me. Why? Because it doesn't use past tense, it says "Unless they pull out a gun" then the 10seconds warning is gone and you have to arrest/kill immediately after the warning.

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jamie.PNG

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 If there is someone with a gun out, i’m expected to run up to them. Ask them to drop it and if not then they’ll shoot me. Basically signing my own death wish if this is the case. 
 

It just seems like staff are on different pages with the rule. Yes Jamie has clarified it. However I was told off other A+‘s in the past that I can KOS a for having a gun out. 
 

Plus, if you now cannot KOS for them having a gun out, it renders the swat sniper job semi-useless. Surely this could be changed to allowing them to KOS if it is written into the laws that if you have a gun out you will be arrested/killed. Then it is a warn but it also makes CP not signing their life away.

 

BTW I’m not trying to be an awkward prick by keep questioning. Just trying to get a clear understanding of the rule as a lot of people don’t really interpret the same.. 

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Just now, Chriss said:

 If there is someone with a gun out, i’m expected to run up to them. Ask them to drop it and if not then they’ll shoot me. Basically signing my own death wish if this is the case. 

I understand it sounds kind of hilarious when you put it that way, but basically, yes. It's to give a kind of balanced advantage to both parties, you can't just kill/arrest people immediately. that'd be unfair, and you can always have your gun out while doing so ( the warning ) So if they start shooting/pull the gun out/keep it equipped then you start arresting/shooting. I believe it's balanced to a fair point.

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5 minutes ago, hnood190 said:

I understand it sounds kind of hilarious when you put it that way, but basically, yes. It's to give a kind of balanced advantage to both parties, you can't just kill/arrest people immediately. that'd be unfair, and you can always have your gun out while doing so ( the warning ) So if they start shooting/pull the gun out/keep it equipped then you start arresting/shooting. I believe it's balanced to a fair point.

I guess, if you play it out right you can minimise death. However I just think it would be a lot better if a rule was in place stating if it is in the laws then citizens have been warned. Then it doesn’t render swat sniper job useless.

 

My whole concern with this is, if I run up to someone, ask them to drop the gun, they are like “Naw fuck off mate” and then start getting me down with a famas, before I have time to realise (as I am a fat Geordie prick) I am dead. Just seems like it would give gangsters the upper hand.

 

Ty for explaining it a bit though. I guess if you plan the “stop” out before then it *can* work

 

Anyways im gonna head to sleep. Thanks for explaining it mr Hnood

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4 minutes ago, Chriss said:

BTW I’m not trying to be an awkward prick by keep questioning. Just trying to get a clear understanding of the rule as a lot of people don’t really interpret the same.. 

It's totally, fine, don't even worry about it. I'm happy to share knowledge with others.

5 minutes ago, Chriss said:

It just seems like staff are on different pages with the rule. Yes Jamie has clarified it. However I was told off other A+‘s in the past that I can KOS a for having a gun out. 

Then I hope they can read what Jamie has said and fix their view about that rule.

5 minutes ago, Chriss said:

Plus, if you now cannot KOS for them having a gun out, it renders the swat sniper job semi-useless. Surely this could be changed to allowing them to KOS if it is written into the laws that if you have a gun out you will be arrested/killed. Then it is a warn but it also makes CP not signing their life away.

I understand, it makes swat sniper semi-useless, that's true. It only makes it useless to the killing part, SSnipers can do a lot. Like defending/raiding from afar, Have an almost non-spottable point of view where they can take their time on their shots if someone just starts killing CPs or does something to provoke KOS. Or if someone is resisting arrest, they can pop them easily.

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1 minute ago, Chriss said:

However I just think it would be a lot better if a rule was in place stating if it is in the laws then citizens have been warned. Then it doesn’t render swat sniper job useless.

Yes, I would LOVE to see a rule stating that swat snipers can KOS from afar if someone is breaking a law and it states in lawboard that Swat snipers can do so. It'd be a LOT more fun and useful for CPs, and also would be encouraging for people to get VIP so they can also just pop people's head off for breaking a law.

Yes, I'm totally with you on that one, I'd love to see it added, but I doubt it highly.

Just now, Chriss said:

Pretty sure this isn’t allowed or is it in the process of being defined in the rules. But yeah I get what you mean my dude ❤️

Meant like from the PD window if some people are planning a raid or like raiding a base and swat snipers fall back to pop defenders heads off.

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4 minutes ago, hnood190 said:

Yes, I would LOVE to see a rule stating that swat snipers can KOS from afar if someone is breaking a law and it states in lawboard that Swat snipers can do so. It'd be a LOT more fun and useful for CPs, and also would be encouraging for people to get VIP so they can also just pop people's head off for breaking a law.

Yes, I'm totally with you on that one, I'd love to see it added, but I doubt it highly.

Meant like from the PD window if some people are planning a raid or like raiding a base and swat snipers fall back to pop defenders heads off.

Not too sure if this is sarcasm or not with all the capitalisation. I just think it would be useful to have some sort of unique/special job to allow for the use of snipers in role play context. Say you see a group of Gangsters with guns but they’ve put them away. Get a sniper on a roof top, they be over watch. You and the boys rock up. Ask them to face the wall, if they move then bang. Sniper shoots the cunt that moved. 

In my opinion that would be a good compromise in terms of allowing CPs to work effectively.

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Just now, Chriss said:

Not too sure if this is sarcasm or not with all the capitalisation. I just think it would be useful to have some sort of unique/special job to allow for the use of snipers in role play context. Say you see a group of Gangsters with guns but they’ve put them away. Get a sniper on a roof top, they be over watch. You and the boys rock up. Ask them to face the wall, if they move then bang. Sniper shoots the cunt that moved. 

In my opinion that would be a good compromise in terms of allowing CPs to work effectively.

It wasn't sarcasm, I always loved the idea of making swat snipers able to KOS under specific terms like you mentioned.

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To clarify this whole mess, you do have to warn them if they have a gun out but not using it UNLESS you warned them for something and they pull out a gun on you, then you may KOS/AOS. About the SWAT Sniper, you cannot build on the street apart from building a checkpoint so what you could do is link a sniper tower to the checkpoint and that is technically allowed since it's part of the checkpoint. Though you cannot have random snipers towers laying around the map.

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9 minutes ago, JamieB said:

I will try to go over things that need clarifying I’m not overly keen on people just taking things as open to interpretation. However I don’t really want the rules to end up with 6 lines of text for every single rule that takes 30 minutes to read 

Totally understand that. Maybe a separate document for like an FAQ about some rules and stuff maybe? Something so that it allows staff and players to go off, rather than it being up to their interpretation. 

 

Just an example, I was told (by a few staff members) you could not kill someone breaking into your house if you did not have a KOS sign. I disagreed as they are being hostile. Whereas just today someone asked and another admin said you can as they are being hostile. It just results in staff going against each other. 

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2 hours ago, Chriss said:

Totally understand that. Maybe a separate document for like an FAQ about some rules and stuff maybe? Something so that it allows staff and players to go off, rather than it being up to their interpretation. 

 

Just an example, I was told (by a few staff members) you could not kill someone breaking into your house if you did not have a KOS sign. I disagreed as they are being hostile. Whereas just today someone asked and another admin said you can as they are being hostile. It just results in staff going against each other. 

Just can’t rely on common sense because some people clearly lack it

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8 minutes ago, JamieB said:

Just can’t rely on common sense because some people clearly lack it

I'm happy to help write some FAQ or something if you want. Could just put a link on the rules page for some scenarios then it gives players a better understanding, if they need it. And then players can also use it in sits rather than the "She said this is allowed" "Well <staff member> said this is allowed"

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